West Harbour or East Mountain?

The surprises around the Pan Am stadium debate just keep coming.

Yesterday, we learned that Fenn's report has solidified the TiCats' preferred location for the Pan Am stadium - a patch of land on the east mountain currently owned by the province. You can read Fenn's full report here and read John Kernahagn's article about it here.

This new site has everything the TiCats want: highway access, lots of space for parking, and no remediation necessary.  It's completely different from the downtown location preferred by the city that requires some cleanup but offers way more in terms of urban transformation.

Yesterday, I polled a few councillors and found that they were still supportive of west harbour - but only to a point. Russ Powers told me he didn't want to be part of anything that pushes the TiCats out of Hamilton. Bernie Morelli said he knew from the beginning that west harbour wouldn't be easy to sell.

With the Katz issue, Fenn's report, and a looming deadline from Pan Am officials to firm up the site, I'm sure I'm not the only one whose head is spinning. What do you think? Are you following this debate, or just waiting to see what happens when the dust settles? Which site do you prefer - west harbour or east mountain?

I will also be live blogging from tomorrow's special meeting as council discusses Fenn's report. The meeting will start right after council finishes their Board of Health meeting - so tune tomorrow morning for a full blow-by-blow.

Comments

[Waterfrontboy]

If Fred betrays the West Harbour, he will commit political suicide. Stay the course.

[Mike Russell]

The site being mentioned on the East mountain has worse access than the West Harbour. To a group worried about access and economic potential it has nothing to offer.

For the most part access to the proposed East mountain site is along 2 lane country roads. It is just as far from the Linc/ Red Hill as the West Harbour location is from the 403 with fewer alternative routes.

The potential to develope the area around the stadium is also limited, since most of what is there, is fairly new. So the chances of commercial interests building anything in conjunction with the stadium are slim to none unless they want to pay an arm and a leg for the newly developed lands.

Then there is the residential neighbours who I am sure will object to what is more than likely residential lands being turned into commercial lands. At least with the West Harbour the city would be rehabilitating a neighbourhood and former industrial lands.

For me it doesn't really matter what location they decide on I can get to either location fairly easily. My objection to the East mountain site is that it will do nothing to help this city. It's just a stadium stuck in the middle of nowhere with very little positive economic benefit to the surrounding area. At least with the West Harbour we would be doing something that has much more potential to positively impact this city from an economic standpoint.

[Thesuburbscounttoo]

The East mountain is a good compromise. The site is not in the middle of nowhere it is near a great road network, visible to all and in the fastest growning community in the city. Fred would have to be really thick to pass up this opportunity.

Go Cats Go!

[steve sheen]

I have always thought the answer is right in front of them,The Scott Park School site.Replace the school and the arena with the new stadium and a new arena,lots of space,easy access and in the same neighbourhood,as well as lots of parking on the old ivorwynne site.Other than that i would support the west harbour site.

[Robbie]

Who leaked this report? Debating the report prior to officical release does not help the process. Another case for Earl Basse to investigate. I will not comment until it becomes official.

[Tom Robertson]

I am sure the east mountain location will be held up for years as the nearby residents and environmentalists file their complaints. Get on with it build in the west harbour brownfield.

[Jennifer D]

East Mountain is a perfect location! Let's not forget that Metrolinx (the provincial agency responsible for transit in the GTA - including GO) and the Ontario Realty Corporation were the ones that proposed this site. If Council can't see the Provincial government's fingerprints all over this "compromise" then we as a city have a bigger problem than where to put a stadium.

Council needs to recognize that this presents a tremendous opportunity to have a new stadium in part through federal/provincial monies AND redevelop the west harbour consistent with the city's long established 'Setting Sail' plan with, you guessed it...more federal/provincial money. The decision by Council July 7th is an easy one!

[kevv]

great new area .forget the swamp land their trying to sell us its a stink hole. the east mountain area has everything. including hundreds of Restaurants just down the road.75 mil. is better coming from the ticat owner than the tax payers anyday..

[Markalanwhittle]

Thank goodness the mistake by the lake (West Harbour Stadium Precinct) has been put out of it's misery by the bold vision of Tiger-Cat owner Bob Young. The ORC/East Mountain Stadium Precinct is the only way for Games CEO Ian Troop to move forward.

[Sleepless in Stoney Creek]

In a city where dumb ideas are a dime a dozen, this site proposal could be the dumbest idea EVER! Upper Stoney Creek is already ridiculously challenged with the lack of arterial road thanks to the Eramosa Karst lands which lay adjacent to this proposed stadium site.

I'm going to be curious to see what Brad Clark says about this one in that he's already come out and supported the protection of these lands as karst feeder lands. In fact, the FOTEK folk are probably going nuts right now. There is almost NO public transport here and there's about as much ability to provide parking as there is at West Harbour.

I just don't get Bob Young here. The sponsor dollars are such a red herring. If ad dollars are so important, how did the freakin' SkyDome only sell for a tenth of the cost of construction to Rogers on one of the busiest stretches of roadway in Canada?

If this decision is made, I know two things for sure: 1) I cancel my Ticat seasons tickets and NEVER go to a game again; and 2) I get the hell out of Hamilton and head to Burlington. I'll take an unfinished pier and some intensification over this clown show of a city ANYDAY!

[Dan Jelly]

The East Mountain site would be a disaster. I thought the legacy fund was for city building, not sprawl building.

What will Metrolinx say when we tell them we're taking the biggest civic project to come along in decades and putting it away from anywhere our rapid transit routes will go?

Ticats fans be prepared for ticket prices to soar.. this will become a pastime for the suburban crowd if it goes to the East Mountain. Say goodbye to your game day experience as you know it.

[HarbourFan]

Fred caved for 30 pieces of silver. He's gotta go!

[cheryl Ceretti]

The Bay site is the best site and should remain as the only site. Having Bob Young wave his millions around is telling Hamiltonian's that if you have enough money, you can even buy City Hall. I am shocked that the city is still listening to the Ti-Cats trying to take control over a stadium that will be used for other events beside theirs. If they want it in the East Mountain, then let them pay for the entire thing. Building it so far away from the core is like asking for failure. Many people will not even make the effort to go to the games considering the time it will take to get there and back. Not worth it. The Ti-Cats will not fill up the stadiums and then of course Bob Young will blame it on someone else. Who is running this thing? The City members who were voted to speak for the people or Bob Young whom no one voted in.

[Marcus]

Please before posting a comment regarding possible lack of support by Metrolinx, (the GTA transit agency) or the provincial government recognize that the province recommended the East Mountain lands - lands the Ontario Government already owns.

[Patrick Keller]

Folks...when we say that any new stadium should be erected in the lower city, take a good look at Copps. Hardly used to it's potential and please don't tell me it will attract an NHL franchise because it won't, it's too outdated now. As for 'no transit' at the East Mountain location, I can only assume that the HSR will deal with routing when necessary. This may not be the ultimate location for a football stadium but I feel its further ahead than the lower city site.

[Kal15]

The east mountain is a great site. It has excellent highway access -- the highway exit from the Linc/Red Hill is RIGHT THERE! And while the area may not be perfectly served by transit right now, transit routes are not carved in stone and are adjusted based on need. Have a little vision people. This land will be developed regardless; if not a stadium, then houses, strip malls and more big box. The airport is close by old, new and to-be-built hotels are in the vicinity -- Upper James is just a quick jaunt down the Linc.

[Brian Berezowski]

Put The Veledrome on West Harbour....you can park a lot of bycycles there if there is room for 600 cars.

[Anton Mesrobian]

@Mike Russell... the site is adjacent to the Stone Church exit / entrance to the LINC/RH Expressway. Much, MUCH closer than WH is to the 403. Also, Stone Church is no longer a "country road". Not only is there fairly easy access to the Expressway but also Centennial Parkway, Rymal Road and Dartnal Road. Have you visited the East Mountain recently?

The East Mountain site seems like a good compromise.

[Glenn]

When you offer a product or service, you must pay attention to your clients needs. The Ti Cats are the main client and could expand to pro soccer.
If you lose the client, they leave, what do you have?
If the client asks you to improve something and offers to help pay for the development and maintenance, therefore improving the worth of the asset, you jump on it.

East mountain it is!

GAH

[glen]

Just a question from an outsider.

What does everyone think of this compared to Young's original proposal at Confederation Park (if that was actually his original location)?

[D vant]

So the Red Hill Expressway has been flooding over and over again. What has been proposed now? Build a stadium at the top of the Red Hill and pave over a huge field area and add parking lots. Yah, that makes total sense. Let's pour more water down the Red Hill creek as fast as we can.
Hilarious.

[Donna]

Lower city people sure have a misconception of east mountain. We are not in middle of no where.. A stadium up here is the more intelligent choice, lets be smart mayor and stop trying to make a legacy for yourself before you are no longer mayor..do whats right for hamilton, you can still build your waterfront paradise..without the stadium. People from out of town preferred box stores to shop..all look for malls..East Mountain..right choice..make it

[Terry]

I guess I'm in the minority on this I think based on email reaction and the radio callers reaction to this new proposal by the WhiteStar group.
I see that people in Hamilton don't have much vision about city building but they do have alot of vision on how it will fail if we attempt to build a better downtown. Well in this case
I believe, whatever you negatives think is what you will get!

Yes, it is a tight space down by the West Harbour and yes, this might be a pie in the sky proposal submitted by the Whitestar Group but it's still VISION! Even bigger than the Tiger Cats and City of Hamilton's vision (and by that I mean we haven't seen any architectual plans with some detail yet from either one and I wish they would give a proper picture based on what our tax dollars are paying for). I do agree though the timing is bad for this proposal and it has alot of private investment questions but it seems that might be the fault of alot of factors on the table and not just City Hall in this case.
A Vision to build a beautiful retractable roof stadium, hotel, residenses and Velodrome with the Hall of Fame included and retail spaces I think is ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC! I knew that from an architect standpoint that the West Harbour would be much more inspirational site than a Suburban site in Stoney Creek (yes I said suburban because the east mountain is not accesable by convienent rail transit and only has very few bus routes).
I think everyone would love to go down to the West Harbour area to experience all of the beauty that our city has to offer and come home with a smile. And that is what it comes down too, AN EXPERIENCE that everyone in the city would be proud of and tell our friends and family from out of town. I believe the East Mountain with it's door to door conveinence by car doesn't provide that experience to come back and visit again. Huge parking lots will just create a huge traffic jam anywhere you go and in any city plus your not servicing those people that don't have a car (and don't want one) as well as not
realising the vision of a greener city environment and putting down less of a carbon footprint in our atmosphere (10 years from now Transit will be much better and much more convienient...Yes, why not make it that way downtown first where it is needed). I don't see how it will satisfy people to have a east mountain stadium next to a highway that has problems with flooding anyways with next to no ARCHITECTUAL CHARACTER already in that area just a greenfield next to parking lot. Big Box stores and cookie cutter homes don't do anything for me anyway. Lets not forget that this is for the PAN AM games to showcase our beautiful city and a pretty good chance at that.
I've lived in Hamilton all my life in the East, West, North and South. Why do we struggle and complain about projects that are positive for our city I have no clue. It's too easy to blame City Hall and I believe it's more than that..much more!
I live on the mountain but I want this opportunity to be built by the West Harbour. It is the better choice period!! not the east mountain. It's better for city building VISION and a VISION for the future that will leave a legacy (my god the Empire Games from the 1930's brought forth Ivor Wynne Statdium that has lasted for over 80 years and the Tiger Cat owners have operated there ever since).
But hey like I said before it looks like I'm in the minority on this one....or am I?!