« Twists and turns | Main | Stadium Decision Day »

08/04/2010

Comments

kevv

the stadium debate has made a laffin stock to outsiders of hamilton.
with all the money spent on Consultants,council should have had a city wide vote for the location, if we the taxpayers are paying we should choose the site.
this last minute decision is just like what happened to the reno at city hall and redhill,
no imput from taxpayers .
we pay they for scru ups the mayor and councilors make ,they get tossed out at election time, its starts all over.

seems like everyone at city hall thinks they are demigods and to hell what the peasants want.
keep votin these morons out till they get the message.
just like mcstinky and cretin,
no new taxes (sorry we lied),

Brian Henley +

Good topic.
For me personally, the matter has gone beyond just the stadium location alone.
I'm very, very disapponied with the Hamilton Tiger Cat organization.
I'm also weary of blame being dumped on Mayor Eisenberger or the other city politician on this.
City politicians and city staff have all acted responsibly, as they should, to protect the interests of all Hamiltonians.
The Tiger Cats have acted persistently in a devious, bullying, dishonourable, and ultimately a very unprofessional manner.
A shameful display.
The divisions in the community will probably heal over time, but any further support for the Tiger Cats from this corner at least, in terms of game attendance, is over wherever the stadium may be located.

Zorro

Debate What Debate was this? All I have read is of a disagreement between two bunches of Moron's about "How,Where and How Much" of our Taxpayers Dollars to WASTE on another "White Elephant" that is unneeded by the vast majority of the Tax Overloaded Citizenry.
A "Pox" on them all,FIX up the Decaying Third World Infrastructure!
You will get your "Just Desserts" come Election Time!

Robbie

Last election 37.25% showed up to vote.
This election will be about the same.
This issue will be long forgotten about come voting season. I don't think the stadium debate has brought in any extra folks that don't normally involve themselves or who express an opinion.
In Toronto where I spend my days, most folks don't even know that Toronto is hosting the 2015 Pan Am games never mind what is going on in Hamilton.
To Emma's question, I don't think this debate has done anything other than harm the reputation of the Ticats and Bob Young. Multi-millionaires who cry poor and offer to pay millions so that they can receive 10s of millions in tax dollar support, lose some fans and never gain any extra.

Steven Sheen

Well i think The Great Stadium Debate as you call it has not been great for the city no.To me I have seen a divide,for what ever reason.I have to ask the city this,because i haven't seen or heard the question,has anyone asked the cats WHY.Why wont or don't you want to play at the west harbour.I will however say i do support the west harbour location.

Doug

I'm not sure this stadium debate will end soon. Pick a site, doesn't matter which. No matter the location, we will see venum spewing from those who favour the losing side. Is this good for the city? Yes, because the debate will be carried forward to the municipal election where councilors will pay a price if they vote against the wishes of the electorate. Democracy at its finest!

Rene Gauthier

As much as I appreciate the passion shown in both camps, I think a lot of the rhetoric has gone over the top in several aspects. There has been a series of scorched earth threats from both sides, degrading what really should be a reasonable debate. Neither side would accept any form of compromise. It's turned into a battle of wits on the both sides, with bystanders being forced to take one side or the other. One thing is for sure. Both sides have been playing chicken with each other to the point a lot of us are starting to tune out.

Threats of boycotting the Tiger-Cats for trying to assert their status as a stakeholder is not helping either. And the city's unwillingness to allow the Ticats to be a partner in this process started the whole thing and in the end, this is going to cost Eisenberger his job and rightfully so. Rather than walk the path of a diplomat, he has chosen to go to war and the city is suffering for it. And this worsens with the appearance of those who want to save Ivor Wynne Stadium. This has degraded into a complete and utter mess.

The only compromise that will end this fiasco is to go ahead with the amphitheatre and velodrome in the West Harbour and build the soccer/football stadium on the East Mountain, using the Whitestar concept originally for the West Harbour, with the retractible roof, condos, office buildings and the Football Hall of Fame moved up there.

And those who would like to bellyache about urban sprawl should know that it's already going on up there and whether it's a stadium or anything else, something will be there. It won't be farmland forever.

Now please, let's put this mess behind us.

Markalanwhittle

I've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours reading reports, and anything else available to the public regarding where to build a stadium and Velodrome for the Pan-Am games.

I have been in constant contact with Pan-Am games CEO Ian Troop, nice fellow. Open, honest and transparent, he wants what's good for the games, above all else.

I certainly understand what he means by legacy, a paying user, or group of users, like football teams or soccer teams, as the case may be.

Anyhow, having made visits to both areas to see for myself, it wasn't that hard to figure out which location will serve this community well for generations to come, one with a park, instead of a stadium.

What I really find sad, and I'm sure Ian Troop would concur, we are losing sight of the heart and spirit of the games, why we are participating in this world class event in the first place.

I'm impressed that Mr. Troop has allowed council to carry on as they have, everyone chipping in their partisan two cents worth, instead of dealing with the fundamental principles of the Pan-Am Games.

Who will be footing the bill after the games have left? Having paying tenants lined up before you build something is always a good idea.

Why has nobody (paying users) stepped forth to support Mayor Fred's insistence on the west harbour site for a 15,000 seat stadium and Velodrome?

The Tiger-Cats, and Bob Young, have done their homework and much, much more, in preparation for the Pan-Am games on Hamilton east mountain, a pastoral setting unlike any other I've seen.

We have to have a Pan-Am stadium on he east mountain that pulls its own weight, only Bob Young has offered to assume this responsibility, taxpayers will not be on the hook for one thin dime.

The recent discussions about a Greenfield parking lot across the street from the lobe of land proposed for the stadium structure, fails to note that two-lane on and off ramps spill right into the side of this property at a t-bone stoplight.

If you were to drive straight through, you would be in the east mountain stadium parking-lot.

Crosswalks are already there because this section of road is four lanes wide at this point. Other arterial roads lead away from this area in every conceivable direction.

In case nobody has noticed the highway 20 area and highway 6 is bustling with ongoing development of every single type, residential, commercial, the works.

This part of the mountain is booming at an incredible pace, to call it suburbia is rediculous.

I keep hearing how the best interests of the public will be served, I hope that includes the hopes and dreams of the 250,000 Hamilton residents who live on Hamilton mountain and the surrounding communities, who want to get behind the spirit of the games as well, not treated as second class citizens by those living in the lower city because we support the east mountain location.

People drive cars in huge numbers in this city, look in any driveway on any street you pick, average two cars or more. People also like convenience, that's why all shopping centres have huge parking lots, they are a fact of life, and a reality.

I have also been doing research on parking lots and how to make them more environmentally acceptable and how to lower their carbon foot-print.

I was surprised at some of the innovative ways, one I saw had a canopy of solar cells used to off-set the power requirements of the stadium when in use, and feeding back into the grid when the stadium was not in use, or another lot paved with non-permeable surfaces with drainage that is used to flush the toilets in the stadium.

I could go on but you get the idea. I look forward to reading the report we have all been waiting for, the sooner the better, the public has a right to know, especially a decision of this magnitude.

Burke Austin

The bridge points the way!
It was an exciting day for us in Parkview neighbourhood with the appearance of a very long metal frame that was transported down Brampton Ave. It blocked off streets with OPP and MOE and MTO all there. This was a major part of the pedestrian bridge that will be completed this October. It will be a connect for people, not cars, to safetly overpass the QEW to the Lakefront from the rail trail to the waterfront trail. A great place to see a ti-cat game or some other event, once again the bridge points the way to put Hamilton on the map. But if Confederation Park remains a no-starter for the Pan Am Games, which in my opinion is the best location, then Hamilton will loose, our taxes will plummit along with our water and hydro bills and people will simply move away.

Burke Austin

But, next year the kids will have a safe access to our waterfront and thats a good thing

WE NEED YOU

THIS MESSAGE IF FOR ALL THE PASSIONATE,CARING AND SUPPORTIVE CITIZENS OF HAMILTON WHO LOVE THE WESTHARBOURFRONT, SETTING SAILS VISION FOR OUR COMMUNITY. EVERYONE! COME-OUT AND BE UNITED TOGETHER AT HESS VILLAGE THIS SATURDAY AUGUST 7TH FROM 3-30-8-30PM. THE MAYOR AND BOB BRATINA AND MANY MANY MORE SELECTED SPEAKERS WILL BE THERE. LETS STAND UNITED - NOT TO MENTION FOLKS IT WILL BE A BLAST, SEE YA THERE!

craig duvall

Get these IDIOTS, i mean all of them,OUT.Hamilon is a dying citygetting worst all the time.You are going to lose the only CFL team you have,soom the Pan AM games,that could possibly put some Money into the city once again,but becuse all these idiots that feel the ar doing good,the Ticats willing to finace more and more all the time,BUT,they want to do want they want to do and stuck on that.Good for them,or good for the taxpayers.I see so much political gain, not for the taxpayers,but for their own pockets.Honestly, if i see,just ONE, of these idiots again re-elected at city hall, i believe YOU,deserve it.I moved away from Hamilton few years ago,but visit every now and than,and see just disgust.Whats the matter with you people, NO 1 to vote for? DON"T LET THEM FOOL U AGAIN,or, watch it get worst.

Allison Gowling

It is simple; Eisenberger is a buffoon and a clown, and council is just a bunch of stumblebums.

Eisemberger and council could not organize a two-car funeral and the Lord's Prayer.

Allison Gowling

Shane Shaw

Ok interesting posts, but Council already made the decision. Hopefully someone from the spec will post the link.

Tom Robertson

What time will the speakers be on at this rally? I don't want to miss that.

Kathy Hagan

I note Mr Young gathered his group for his high priced rally yesterday. I think he should be ashamed of his disregard for the lower city. Street beat said it well in his column. Mr Young did say he at the start of all this that he was not averse to the West Harbor. I think others { developers of the East Mountain} saw an opportunity to move in and lo Mr Young did a full spin turn.
Yes, this stadium has caused division and there will be a election in this city in October, I hope the voters realize that this fiasco is overshadowing the real needs of this city. Be careful and well informed about who you vote in. I will certainly be at the rally in Hess village because I feel strongly the West harbor is the best place.

Allan Taylor

I live in the lower city. Bob Young is not disregarding me. Speak for yourself. This debate is whats best for the city including both the Cats and the North End. Many people don't feel a stadium is in the best interests of that area. Many feel its actually counterproductive to making the area a people place. Many of those people live in the lower city. Regardless of whether the stadium is built, the Rheem site is better off with a plan that does not include the stadium I hope that when all is said and done the Rheem site is cleaned up and is no longer an impediment to revitalization of the North End but rather a good reason for people to decide that its a good place to live

Irwin Walker

The Federal and Provincial governments acting over the heads of council and citizens is unacceptable. Decisions for Hamilton must be made by Hamiltonians. The priority for Hamilton is downtown development and waterfront restoration. Priorities are not a stadium per se, not the Ti-Cats, not Pan Am crumbs.
Regarding the stadium question, we must go beyond Pan Am and Ti-Cats. Is a football stadium of benefit to Hamilton in the long run? It could be an asset, but will be used only occasionally, so it is only of benefit if it stimulates other things, specifically downtown development. A satellite city in the East End, and profit for Ti-Cats does not benefit Hamilton. The aggressive stance of the Ti-Cats is only understandable in the context of profit, and certainly not in the context of benefit for Hamilton. In this it is counterproductive; I see a satellite city on the edge of Hamilton with big box stores and other commercial enterprises surrounding the stadium, taking advantage of the necessarily extensive road works and sewers, sucking even more air out of the city centre and feeding despair about our city. Our state of mind will greatly determine our actions in the future, so attention has to be paid to this. We must restore and/or maintain pride for Hamilton – accepting crumbs of Pan Am, and being controlled by private enterprise to its advantage, not the public’s, is shameful, embarrassing and depressing. It will have long term consequences.
I propose: no public funds to Ti-Cats and withdraw support for Pan Am unless there is clear public advantage. As well, with pride and future history about this dismal chapter in mind, and regardless of whether or not we can stop the Ti-Cats and Federal and Provincial Governments, I call on Hamilton City Council, the public’s elected body, to take a vote for the record. In an extreme situation doing nothing is often much better than doing something really bad.


Mr Upson

Hello to All

I a Hamiltonian, born and raised. Been around 40 some odd years.

The one thing I wish to say about the PAN AM Stadium, that everybody seems to be forgetting or not saying is LOCATION; is the first and primary concern.

Yes the idea of putting the Stadium at West Harbour has good quallities for business rebuilding, gas stations, and stores struggling in the area. At what cost loosing the free parking at Bayfront and Pier 4 area. NO PARKING at all, basically the same problem that Ivor Wynn Stadium has. Yeah you can park on somebodies property for 5-15 dollars, or at Scott Park for I think is 20 dollars but we won't go into the fact that kids still use the park afterwards and not every car owner can swear that their car does not leak.

East Mountain lots of space for stadium and parking and accesibility unbelievable. Highway 20, Highway 53, Red Hill and Linc gives Stadium users four different directions in and out.

Yes Hamilton needs a NEW Stadium, NEW Parking, and IF WE DO THIS RIGHT; maybe it would bring the eyes of the NHL a little closer on Hamilton; or did anybody think that if they put in the right size field that we could change, how about a International Soccer match, International Rugby, and yes how about maybe a slightly cheaper day of watching the NFL do a preseason game in another city of Canada, of course not taking the eyes off Toronto but maybe it could win over the money and banks of the Pro Teams of several Different Pro sporting areas.

We won't talk about other events that can used at the new Stadium; Outdoor concerts, NHL Outdoor hockey game they do once a year, the use of it as a big part of EARTH DAY events; and if they are designing it with everthing in mind how about Solar power or wind turbines to cut cost of Hydro.

I am sorry for those West Harbour Community that wanted the stadium, but East Mountain is the better of the two locations that we know about.

Again LOCATION is a concern, for parking, traffic, and somewhere down the line at the end of it money is still brought into the Hammer; through hotels, gas stations, and shoppers that come in for all the events at the NEW STADIUM.

craig duvall

The debate has been vry good for the city.Where are the rest of the coucillors that represent the mountain area.I have seen or heard anything from Councillor Scott Duvall about this, and he represents a ward close to this area.WHY< i think, maybe he might put his foot in his mouth so close to election time.He's quiet about toxic waist dumps all of a sudden, quiet about all matters,WHY?I see and hear him at local pups in his area, talks loud and proud, but where is he when something needs solved?Why would you want to vote for not only him, but all other coucillors and mayor that YOU, voted for?Maybe, because no-one is their to run against them,who knows?Best way, is not to vote at all,they might get re-elected but at least you will not be blamed for Hamilton getting worst than what it is.Another option, get out of this once city that was a great city, as i did.Don't let them CON or LIE to you again,if you do, may god be with you

Patrick Moore

I have concluded that, from the recent letters by the current Tiger Cat owner, this man is a bit of a loon.
I refer you to the Spectator article in February, citing the conclusions by Deloitte, that the West Harbour location is the best suited for Hamilton, so where do the 'Cats get off bringing in their own consultants in as the planning winds down.
The feds have stated that in order for Hamilton to be eligible for 'free money', there must be a high performance sports facility to remain after the Pan Am Games. I do believe that the comment was meant, although not written into the article, to be for amateur sports.
There are nationally sponsored High Performance Centers in many cities across Canada. I believe that the Claude Robillard Centre in Montreal is the best example, with aquatic center, indoor and outdoor training facilities for track and field as well as other sports, all with a large seating capacity - both indoor and outdoor. The Claude Robillard Centre was built for the 1976 Olympics, using only Province of Quebec funds, since the feds would not contribute, apparently because they did not 'endorse' the Olympics.
Beyond that there are meeting rooms and other facilities that, collectively would not only help to contribute to help the structure become economically viable, but to become the community center that Hamilton has badly needed for decades.
There are other similar High Performance Centers in Canada, which operate without a CFL team as an anchor tenant, and yes, they are located in cities which have a CFL team.
The short sighted Tiger Cats do not appear to look beyond their own 'special needs', and indeed, do not qualify as a 'High Performance Sports' organization, amateur or professional.
The rumour that the current owner will move the team to either Ottawa or Quebec city would appear to be illogical to a normal thinker.
Both Ottawa CFL teams folded because the franchise could not put a consistent, winning team on the field, and the fans stayed away in droves. - If the Senators have a poor season, their attendance will drop dramatically, as it did recently. Quebec City - even with a winning NHL team, could not support the franchise, which was a shame losing another Canadian NHL team to the USA. I would suggest that Tiger Cats move to Toronto and call themselves the 'Leafs', which may help them put fans in the seats.
The real deal - Toronto Maple Leafs, fielding teams with a won/loss percentage to rival the Tiger Cats, have filled the stands for years. Since T.O. is the place to be for Pan Am Athletics, perhaps it is also a place to support another CFL team.
Since the drive would be a long one for the hard core Hamilton fans, I'm sure that rapid transit all of a sudden would be a great deal.

B McKay

Hey Craig you'll be waiting a long time to hear from Scott Duvall. He's done nothing for 4 years. He's Mr. Under-the-radar.

bob

Ok only in the City of Hamilton. A new Stadium is a must for the Pan-AM games and for future events like concerts, football, soccer and any other event that can bring people and money to hamilton. The size of the stadium should be well over 35,000. Location should be accessable by Bus,Car, large parking lot and have hotels near by. Tax payers money and both provincial and federal money and Hamilton should be a proper sized venue to standout and compete with other venues out of town and across the country. Gee Ivor Wynn stadium is a joke and is the location, so don't make the same mistake again. Majority of the population and growth is on the mountian, the west harbour location is the old city dump and has lovely view of the industrial wastelands, toxix land fill and railyards, its like the downtown of Hamilton became after all the moeny spent to put in the most expensive pigeon bath , no one really cares or will want visit the area. Why not cater to the greater mountain population with East and West access , and have some new hotels build in the area. Its going to take another 30 years to make the waterfront the place to be and live. Just in time for a new statium again and maybe a new hockey arena. The politicans in Hamilton are a Joke, voted to by 25 % of their friends. Come people of Hamilton wake up.

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